INTERVIEW: RYAN & BRANT OF THE 'YOU DON'T KNOW MOJACK' PODCAST

Secret Sauces
May 30
14 min read

A (very) brief history of SST:

SST Records was founded by Black Flag leader Greg Ginn to put out their first 7” (Nervous Breakdown) after it failed to generate much interest from other labels. Housed in a sleeve illustrated by his brother Raymond Pettibon (who soon became a highly regarded artist in his own right), Ginn and Black Flag sold the 7” locally and at shows with other Californian bands such as Minutemen, whose debut 7” (Paranoid Time) was the second release on SST.

Within a few years and plenty of releases and tours by a ton of great new bands (some of the big-hitters: Hüsker Dü, Minutemen, Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Descendents, Bad Brains, Dinosaur Jr. and Soundgarden), SST had easily become one the most important and influential record labels of all time: the label, artists and in-house booking agency Global Booking had been at the forefront of laying the foundations for the world-wide ‘alternative rock’ phenomenon to come in the early ‘90s.

By that point, however, many of the seminal SST bands of the ‘80s had disbanded or left the label, although there were healthy catalogue sales keeping the label afloat as a result of the next wave of massive, commercially successful bands like Nirvana and Green Day citing SST bands as key influences. As the ‘90s progressed the label had little wider-cultural contribution, despite several genuinely brilliant releases worthy of rediscovery. By the end of the decade, it would end up pretty much only releasing obscure Greg Ginn solo projects which, if you’ve heard any of them, are not the sort of records that either storm the charts or start musical and cultural revolutions, as good as some of those records are.

A selection of some of the most well-known SST releases

For full disclosure, SST is my favourite label. The gateway in my teenage years was the records of the aforementioned ‘big hitters’. Those great records led me on a path of discovering artists and records on SST I’d never previously encountered such as Trotsky Icepick, Slovenly, Angst, Das Damen, Negativland, Saccharine Trust and The Leaving Trains. Pretty much everything I heard from the SST catalogue I seemed to love!

By the time I’d become an SST convert in the mid-2010s, most of the label’s catalogue had gone out of print and there was seemingly no UK distribution for the records to be purchased easily over here. While some of the bigger names like Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Dinosaur Jr. and Soundgarden had got back their rights and reissued their records on other labels, I found it criminal that you couldn’t walk into any UK record shop and find copies of ‘My War’, ‘Zen Arcade’ and ‘Double Nickels On The Dime’ like you could with other established classics like ‘London Calling’ or ‘Ramones’ - most of my SST collection was hunted down via Discogs and eBay as it wasn’t easily available anywhere else.

After the pandemic, international shipping rates skyrocketed and ordering directly from the SST Superstore wasn’t feasible for me anymore. I’d buy anything released on SST that I would find, even if I hadn’t heard before (within financial reason), leading me to great records by Sister Double Happiness, Saint Vitus and Zoogz Rift and also a slew of 90s releases by completely unfamiliar names such as Get Me High, Hor and Confront James - which turned out to be Greg Ginn-led projects of varying quality.

A small selection of other classic SST releases

I was still vaguely on Facebook at this time, due to the fact that most of the old-school music fan-forums had migrated over there as ‘groups’, and the ‘SST Records Artists Video Audio And Picture Group’ was the best of the bunch. The group’s focus on celebrating the music of the bands both big and small, by fans all over the world, some of whom had been at early shows, and some of the artists themselves! Despite my generally negative feelings about social media, I cannot deny how much brilliant art I had first been turned on to from groups like that.

One day in 2017, I saw a post in the Facebook group saying that two guys were starting a podcast going through every release in SST’s catalogue - one release per episode. It would be entitled ‘You Don’t Know Mojack’ (referencing an obscure Greg Ginn musical outfit) and I was all in, but doubtful that they’d stick it out - it was a very ambitious goal to go through well over 300 releases, and a common (untrue) viewpoint I’d seen many spout was that the label wasn’t worth paying any attention to from the ‘90s onwards. Surely they would lose interest and pack it in after a while? SST released 80 records in 1987 alone!

I was wrong, and have been listening along ever since as Ryan and Brant have gone through the catalogue, talking about the records, interviewing many of the artists, turning listeners on to a whole load of other great music, films and books, all the while being entertaining and listenable while doing so - probably the hardest of all things to pull off.

Today, SST is in a sad state with most of its catalogue out of print (the records that are still in print are unchanged from their original pressings - no remastering or deluxe editions here), accusations of unpaid royalties, missing or ruined tapes, lawsuits and an increasing number of artists managing to wrestle their catalogue back, which is no easy feat. It’s a history and catalogue that other labels would kill for, and it hasn’t been treated in the way fans feel it deserves. But that’s a different story for a different time.

With the Mojack podcast, Jim Ruland’s 2022 book on the label ‘Corporate Rock Sucks’ (another SST book, Abe Gibson’s oral history of the label and the bands entitled ‘Here To Blast Your Concept’ is long-awaited), the active Facebook community and many SST alumni still putting out great records and playing essential shows, it is obvious that the love for the SST catalogue is still out there.

Jim Ruland's 2022 book 'Corporate Rock Sucks'.

So here we are eight years after the first episode of the podcast, and You Don’t Know Mojack is still going strong after a few months’ break, with the 285th episode landing on the 19th May. I spoke with Ryan and Brant of the podcast to talk about SST, the podcast, the bands and the current stature of SST. Check it out!

INTERVIEW WITH RYAN AND BRANT

On the 5th August 2017, you both started one of the most ambitious podcasts I’ve ever been aware of. Eight years and 280+ episodes later, are you still as fond of SST as you were at the beginning?

Ryan: Yes. Moreso in fact. Every episode sets off a chain reaction of both appreciation and discovery. More please.

Brant: I agree with Ryan. I wouldn’t describe myself as super knowledgeable about SST prior to starting the podcast. I knew all the big albums really well, and some of the lesser known ones, but I’d say at least half of the label’s output was new to me coming into this project. There are diehards on the SST Facebook group that are way more committed and long term fans than me.

We’ll get the obvious question out of the way - do you know Mojack now?

Ryan: I know about and have heard Mojack, But wouldn't say I know Mojack intimately. We are also not permitted to skip ahead under our bylaws.

Brant: I had a few Mojack albums prior to starting the podcast, but I didn’t (and still don’t) know a ton about the band. I’m looking forward to diving into all of the Greg Ginn projects in the 300s, including Mojack.

With such a large catalogue spanning so many different artists and sounds, there are very few people that are familiar with absolutely every SST release. There've been a fair few records that I hadn’t heard until after listening to a Mojack episode about them. So far, are there any SST records or bands you were unfamiliar with before recording the podcast that you have become a big fan of?

Ryan: Not really, since I was either a big fan or casually familiar with most artists thus far. I definitely developed a deeper appreciation for some that I was only casually familiar with, like SWA, Paper Bag: and Blind Idiot God. Once we hit 300, that is when I am pretty unfamiliar with a lot of the artists, and expect to have a lot to discover and hopefully also become a fan.

Brant: Lots for me. I had never heard Slovenly or Trotsky Icepick prior to starting the podcast, and both of those bands are incredible! Zoogz Rift is another for me. He gets unfairly maligned, and it’s so undeserved. Zoogz was a true artist.

Are there any other record labels that were contenders for a release-by-release podcast, or was it always SST from the get-go?

Ryan: I don’t think so when starting up anyways - it was Brant’s idea and SST from the start. Since we started we have daydreamed about others like Alternative Tentacles or Homestead, but some other pods have sprouted up with a similar catalogue-based approach and those would be great and there are several others.

Brant: I don’t think we discussed anything other than SST. I probably said something like “and when we’re done SST we’ll do Alternative Tentacles and then Touch And Go”, but that was before we realized how much work this was going to be. It’s a real time commitment.

Your episodes are sequenced by the SST catalogue numbers, which are not always an indicator of the release date - such as when SST bought New Alliance and started reissuing older New Alliance records on SST many years after they were released. An upcoming one you’ve got to look forward to is Trotsky Icepick’s ‘Carpetbomb The Riff’ (SST 295, released in 1993) and ‘Hot Pop Hello’ (SST 286, released in 1994). Are the catalogue number discrepancies a source of frustration for you, or is it all part of the fun?

Ryan: Part of the fun, 100%. It’s pretty absurd sometimes but definitely part of the SST charm.

Brant: The two people who might know answers to some of these kinds of questions are Chuck [Dukowski] and Greg [Ginn], and neither are speaking about any of it. Trust me, I’ve tried. As much as I want to uncover all of the answers, it’s sometimes fun to investigate or speculate, so we have to settle for that sometimes. It’s definitely not frustrating.

Many SST releases were assigned catalogue numbers and then never saw a release. With these missing numbers you have spent the episode discussing ‘sister label’ Cruz Records with some ‘Cruz Intrusions’. Are there any plans to do similar with New Alliance and even Issues Records? ‘New Alliance Dalliance’ or ‘Issues Ensues’? (My apologies, those were awful).

Ryan: Definitely interested but no promises. We still have a long way to go, and it may make sense for an empty catalogue episode to stray off Cruz to one of the other labels, but it also has to make sense to do so since some of those releases are totally bizarre and nothing is really known about them.

Brant: Yeah, we’ve seen blank catalog numbers here and there up until this point, but eventually we’ll be seeing a lot more. That’s fine, it gives us an opportunity to be creative, have some fun, and shake things up a bit. 'New Alliance Dalliance' is better than anything I’ve come up with so far, haha.

You’ve had some very high-profile guests interviewed on your podcast, and whilst reliably fascinating, I think the true historical value of this podcast is your interviews with artists who don’t seem to have been interviewed as much, or certainly not as much in more recent years. Their stories have not always been told in-depth before and it is very illuminating to hear them. Personally, there are several instances of me being a fan of an artist and their records but having no real idea of what their story was until listening to their interviews on the podcast. Which interviews from the podcast immediately stand out for you as an example of ‘untold history’?

Ryan: Pat Hoed is the first one that jumps to mind. Hella swella fella with a great wrestling crossover. There are dozens like that and we are pretty lucky that way.

Brant: We’ve been super fortunate to have the guests we’ve had. I try to focus on that whenever I get bummed out about the ones we couldn’t land. I really wanted to have Henry [Rollins] on for the 'Family Man' episode, I thought it would be a great opportunity to really go in depth on his history with spoken word. I know he’s talked a bit about Harvey Kubernik and Chuck bringing him along to one of Harvey’s open mic nights, but I really wanted to dig into it. He politely declined. People like Henry get interviewed all the time though, so it can be tough to think of questions that are interesting to them that they haven’t been asked thousands of times before, either in interviews or by fans. The folks that haven’t been asked for years about some record they played on three decades ago are generally more enthusiastic about telling their story. I really liked talking to Henry Kaiser, David Soldier, Kirk Kelly, the Pell Mell guys. There are so many. We really are lucky.

Many SST bands left the label and continued to release records on different labels. As you go through the catalogue, do you start to miss the bands after they leave the label? The supplementary ‘Mojack Stacks’ podcast is a nice way of presenting episodes that don’t fall into the catalogue-numbered record-based episodes of the main podcast. What are the chances of YDKM style episodes on select post-SST releases, such as fIREHOSE’s ‘Flyin The Flannel’ on Columbia or Das Damen’s Mousetrap on Twin/Tone?

Ryan: Definitely miss them, and Flannel is a prime example, as are the Warner Bros. Hüsker releases and the Damen releases (some of their best). Just like with the empty catalogue episodes, we will have to see if it makes sense to delve into those non-SST releases. We do mention them on the final episodes of an artist at a high level usually, but we try to stay SST purists typically.

Brant: Ryan and I are both completists, so if we like a band, we have it all. Every album, single, comp, side project. So yeah, there are so many great bands on the SSTree and so many of these bands released their greatest albums once they left the label (Daydream Nation for example) that it would be super fun to do deep dives into some of them.

There is a common misconception that SST lost its way in the late ‘80s, after many of its biggest bands stopped recording for the label for various reasons. Some point to Soundgarden’s Ultramega OK from 1988 as the last ‘great’ SST release. As you well know, those people are wrong and lots of great records were released past that - are there any releases from the ‘90s onward that particularly stand out for you which shatter that belief?

Ryan: Transition. 'Spine'. Hands down.

Brant: We’re just starting to get into the ‘90s on the show, and because of our Mojack Bylaws, there are plenty of albums in the 300s that I’ve never heard, so to be determined. The Trotsky albums from the ‘90s are unbelievable, The Flesh Eaters albums from when Chris rebooted the band in the ‘90s. I’m a jazz head, so I’m looking forward to some of the stuff like Hotel X, Bazooka and The Sort Of Quartet.

From 1997 onwards, the vast majority of SST releases were obscure Greg Ginn projects - Mojack included. I’ve picked up a fair few of those here and there on a whim… some interesting stuff here and there, I suppose. Will you be coming at many of these records fresh or are you familiar, and are there any ones you’re particularly looking forward to discussing?

Ryan: For me, coming at them mostly pretty fresh. I will admit I am more of a pre-300 person. As mentioned earlier, the Mojack bylaws do not permit skipping ahead if you are not already familiar with the release. That way the episode takes on a totally different life when it is a first timer, which is fun to record and hopefully also interesting to listen to.

Brant: Mainly fresh for me. I know a few here and there that I’ve picked up for cheap over the years, but the vast majority of the 300s are going to be brand new to my ears when we get to them. Can’t wait! I have tons of respect for Greg as an artist, so I just know the common narrative that it’s all garbage is going to be proven wrong.

For a number of reasons, SST seemed to lose its profile a bit in the last couple of decades. A big turning point in the mid-2010s seemed to be the popularity of the SST Facebook fan-group, then your podcast a couple of years later. Since then, we have seen the publication of Jim Ruland’s book on SST. How do you think the stature of SST has changed, if at all, in the eight years since you started the podcast?

Ryan: It has had its ups and downs. I can’t tell if the stature has changed necessarily. It is sometimes very historical and nostalgic - which it is - and sometimes it is all Ginn-bashing which even if based in fact can be tiring and unproductive. Hopefully that is not all SST is - history and controversy - and instead a big part of the SST story remains how many of those artists are still current and vital, as well as the other artists who were influenced by and are continuing to carry the torch for what SST contributed to creating. It should be both: what SST laid the track for, and how artists are still riding those rails.

Brant: I’m probably going to piss some people off here, but I credit streaming for much of that. My kids have access to music that I never dreamed of having, and it’s made them much more open minded, musically, than I ever was at their age. The tent is just much bigger than it’s ever been, and once you factor in nostalgia and a widening general interest in punk/indie rock history, it’s only natural that SST will get swept up in all of that, considering the legendary status and the quality of output.

There have been so many fascinating nuggets of information shared on the podcast, from yourselves, interviews and listener contributions. While Jim Ruland’s recent-ish book is a great read, it was never intended to be as deep a dive into SST’s releases as the Mojack podcast is. Could you envisage a Mojack pod book in the future?

Ryan: Not if Abe Gibson's book ever comes out. It would also probably take us twice as long to write that book as it will to complete the podcast.

Brant: I haven’t spoken to Abe in a long time, he kind of went dark. I know for a fact he’s interviewed many people that I have been unable to speak to, like Whitey Simms from The Leaving Trains and Anthony Martinez from Black Flag to name a few. There is so much more to the story than what we’ve been able to tell on our show, and I think Jim would agree with that in relation to his book. I know Abe put a ton of work into his book, so I’m still hoping it comes out someday. I get asked by people we talk to all the time if we know what the status is. As far as Ryan and I go, listeners will know we are both avid readers, and have discussed our desire to write a book together. Possibly Mojack adjacent.

At this point there are (by my count) 95 releases/108 episodes to come for the podcast. Will you be sad to see it go or do you think that by the end, you’ll be glad it’s over?

Ryan: A bit of both. It is a lot of work and a lot of fun, so it will definitely be bitter sweet. Hopefully we will have at least put something positive out into the universe which people will enjoy or benefit from. The best way for the Mojack pod story to end would be if all the artists got their tapes back, the artists could make some $ off Bandcamp, and someone like Numero re-released everything. Likely wishful thinking, but if that were to happen, hopefully when that music is more available people are going to be more excited about it - at least partially because of what we did.

Brant: Yeah, a bit of both for me too. I’m not complaining, but it is a lot of work, and I won’t lie, sometimes I’m scrambling to meet a deadline and I’m working on the show when I really don’t feel like it. But those times are few and far between, it’s still at least 90% fun. Editing sucks and neither of us will miss that. Ryan is one of my best friends, and we talked about music constantly before doing the show, and will for sure be doing it long after the show ends.

Thank you Ryan and Brant for taking the time to answer my questions, and for continuing to keep interest in the SST catalogue alive with the podcast!

Ryan & Brant: Thank you for your interest and thank you to all of our listeners!